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Thruster bad to go upwind?

Thinking about tinkering around with building a new strapless toy? Have some feedback about construction, materials, rocker line? Post it here.

Moderators: Lonny, Todd, JonModica, tungsten

Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby dub » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:49 am

Hi,
great forum!
Didn't like these straps since I started kiting...

Build a "Waveskim" and now got some questions for u about the fin Setup.

140 x 54 cm
Scoop 7cm, Rocker 1cm
3 layers of ply and some glas

Image

Wave Fins in 9,5 and 7,5cm, sunken screws (bad english? sorry!) and variable roundet Rails:
ImageImageImage

Used the Thruster setup and it was nearly impossible to go upwind.
Now I removed the middle Fin and it just flys upwind!

Tried to paint something about the reason:
Image

What do U think?
Someone ever experiencend the same?
Cannot imagine this effect on every thuster Board - kiteindustrie should have realised?!
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby chanson » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:51 am

hmmm, not sure...I've been on a handful of thrusters that shoot upwind no problem.... maybe has something to do with the size of the fins...they look kinda large for a skim-inspired board...

Anyways, that LF Grind concept you have is super-sick!! presses nice and slippy... fun board! :mrgreen:
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby Lonny » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:33 pm

Hi Dub,

Welcome to Lose the Straps! Thank you very much for joining and sharing your custom wave skim with us. Overall I have to say I am always impressed with the boards that are posted in this forum. :shock: Way to go! 8)

By looking at the pictures you posted I have not had good experiences with wide nosed skims. They tend to catch a lot on the water, and do not release cleanly. Might be one reason why you are having a hard time getting upwind. Also key to riding a skim is working the rails effectively vs. fins, and I think that is harder to do due to the nature of a wide point forward design.

I would also have to agree with Chanson that the fins you have on there currently look too large. Honestly, I would take the fins off put some wax in the holes, and see how it rides. Then add fins slowly going from smaller and up.

Additionally, with a skim I would prefer to build it more like a skimboard than a surfboard, and this is just my 2 cents. When I ride a skim in waves I like to ride it like a skim and not a surfboard. I find that when I have no fins to use it forces me to adapt my riding style to suite a different approach. Just a thought... :idea:

I would like to hear Tungstens opinion since he has some pretty good building experience as well:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=205
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby dub » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:58 pm

First: Thank you very much!

Sad to hear our opinion on the wide nose :(
Chose this shape because I thougt jibing would be more easy to learn...
Perhaps the scoop works a bit against the disadvantages.
Image

But I don't think that the shape is to blame for the upwind ability.
There's really a huge difference beween thruster and twinser:
With just two fins it's no problem to go upwind and as a thruser something seems to turn the board downwind
or slow it down if you try to work against that.
The big center fin could be a reason. If it would be smaller, it would not catch that much water...

Over all the skim works just fine for me now. Landed my first shove-its on it, last session.
But when I look at your Videos Lonny I tend to remove my fins, too :wink:


If someone is interested in some more building pics take a look at: http://kitesurfing-kassel.de/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

chanson: Concept is damn sick shit! :mrgreen:
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby Lonny » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:18 pm

dub wrote:Sad to hear our opinion on the wide nose :(


That was just my thought by looking at the picture, and my experience in the past with this style of shapes. I am definitely not disrespecting your design - heck, I could not even get past step one of what you have created. All props to you. Really, without riding your board it would be hard for me to discern.

Keep on ripping on your custom made skimmer, and post some pictures of you ripping your shuv-its on that bad boy! :twisted:
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby dub » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:56 pm

Nooo, please dont't get me wrong. :D
Just wrote "sad", because I think you are very experienced in skimming and
I didn't have the opportunity to compare different shapes before I started building.
Just took the one that looked "nicest" to me.

But next skim will be built for sure.
Would be very nice to get some outline, rocker and rail suggestions from here.
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby Lonny » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:08 pm

dub wrote:Nooo, please dont't get me wrong. :D
Just wrote "sad", because I think you are very experienced in skimming and
I didn't have the opportunity to compare different shapes before I started building.
Just took the one that looked "nicest" to me.

But next skim will be built for sure.
Would be very nice to get some outline, rocker and rail suggestions from here.


I am just an ordinary guy that likes to skim.. and love to share that passion with people like you. I think you should continue building your boards, clearly you have a talent for it. I am sure you will tell us what works or what you have discovered! :idea:

Here is a post that I did for Yann when he was thinking about building a custom skim as well. I am not saying my board is perfect or anything like that, but I do know that it is a good shape, and works pretty darn well.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=136#p597
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby tungsten » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:38 pm

Hi dub,

my experience with previous ply skims I built and a thruster fin position taken off a surfboard was pretty much the same as yours: board was kind of locked, didn't turn and didn't go upwind well, until I took the center fin off. THis has to do with size and position of your rear fin.

Ideally on any board that is supposed to turn easy, the back foot is above the center (or just a bit forward) of the rear fin(s). With your skim, you will hardly be able to ride with the back foot on top of the rear fin, that would sink the tail - you normally will position your back foot over the side fins. ON a longer board, you can ride upwind in this position as you can use the rails - it's sort of a cruising position though, not for snappy turns. If you want to turn the board, you would move your foot backwards.

This won't work on a short board like a skim. For the limited length of your skim, with a relatively small tail and with the lack of volume compared to a surfboard, your rear fin is too far back for a thruster. You will also find that smaller fins will work better, as lonny says. THe fins you use look like 4", whereas 2" for the side fins of the thruster, and even less for a properly positioned rear fin, are more than enough.

You might also try a center fin only, no side fins, but a small one, like 1,5" to 2". That should also work well.

Have a look at the fin 101 for surf boards, that'll help you to understand better how fins should be placed and dimensioned.

http://magicseaweed.com/Shortboard-Fin- ... ticle/146/
http://www.extremehorizon.com/surfboard_design.asp (scroll down)

Another aspect to consider is toe in. If you lack toe in, the board is also locked in and will not go upwind too well, but this is seemingly not your case.

I hope that makes any sense to you :D

cheers, tungsten
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby dub » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:04 pm

Thank you very much for this great informations tungsten!
Happy to be not the only one having this troubles on a thruster-skim.
You are right. If I look at the dirt one the wax my backfoot seems to be positioned above the side fins.

What do you mean with "if you lack toe in"?
Will a thruster better go upwind, if the fins are directed to the middle/nose?


My side fins are 3" and the rear fin was 3,75"
Got some normal kite fins in 1,5" and 2" round here.

What would you think about a quad setup?
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby tungsten » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:45 am

From what I experienced, the upwind ability is in the board, not in the fins. Well positioned fins support the board's stability and turning and going rail-to-rail, but if badly positioned and / or wrong size / shape, they produce an excessive amount of drag and cause an unwanted pivot point (your rear fin). You might take them off, test the board without fins (I expect it to shoot upwind), and work you way up with the fins until you have the stability you want, but not more than necessary.

On a surfboard thruster, the side fins usually point at the board tip. For a kite surfboard, it's better if they point a bit off the middle, like 2-3" off. If you have them pointing too far off up to parallel, the board feels awkward and locked and the fins seem to produce extra drag.

I can't help you with quad, never played with that.
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby patrickrynne » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:16 pm

I think it is useful to isolate the different "lifting mechanisms" of different boards/fins etc for discussions like these

Skims - a skim board is not much more than a flat plate. When you look at a skimboard going upwind hard (photo attached), you can see that the rail is basically cutting the water, and redirecting the stream down, which in turn provides an upward force for the rider. If its done at an angle, that can turn into a diagonal force that can allow the rider to go upwind pretty well.
skimexample.jpg
skimexample.jpg (101.52 KiB) Viewed 71147 times


Quad/thruster surfboards - these boards are obviously much more buoyant, so they require less flow redirection than a skim or twin tip. When sailing upwind, the board will sail at a better angle if the lifting mechanism is generated off of the fins, rather than the rail. A great way to practice this is to head out on your surfboard in fresh breeze, and sail away from the beach while digging your rail in strong. Similar to this picture.
kiteraceexample.jpg
kiteraceexample.jpg (67.3 KiB) Viewed 71148 times

Tack back and see how much you progressed. On your next tack, instead of focusing on "edging" (i.e, digging the rail into the water), try to focus on "twisting". By twist, I mean sail the board as flat as you can, and pressure the back leg away from you, and pull the front leg towards you. Think of it as trying to turn the nose of the board upwind. Remember to sail as flat as possible and resist the urge to edge the rail more than needed. In my experience, I make significantly more progress upwind this way.

Formulas - I like to think about formula windsurfers because they crush kites upwind. The reason? I think it is because they can full engage their fin without creating excess drag by edging the rail. An example is here.
formulaexample.jpg
formulaexample.jpg (54 KiB) Viewed 71149 times


Moth - For those of you who know about moths, they crush formulas upwind because they can completely eliminate the surface effects of a planning body. They drive entirely off the "fin"....or foils in this case, and are extremely efficient.

so we've got planning surfaces (skims, and surfboards), and lifting surfaces (fins). I think one challenge with putting fins on a skim, or kiting on a surfboard is that you are combining two completely different mechanisms. A skimboard without fins is great in my opinion because it does what it is supposed to do, and in the right conditions, it can be very efficient.

putting a fin on a skimboard to me is like adding a training wheel....at first it might help for stability, but down the road once you are riding that bike down a steep hill, you will wish that additional wheel wasn't there.

kiting on surfboards is the same...surfboards are designed to catch waves, turn well, and provide lift while the board is relatively flat on the waves surface. When we kite on them and dig the rails, we are executing both mechanisms: getting lift by edging the rail and redirecting the flow, and getting some lift and stability from fins that are usually partially ventilated, cavitating, and with stock surfboard fins, nearly always vortex shedding (when you feel the fin vibrate and hummmmmmmm).

if we focus on executing one of the mechanisms perfectly, we will probably go upwind better (i.e - a good skimboarder or a surfboard sailed flat will go upwind better than an average thruster sailed at a large heel angle. I also would add that I think the fin design is CRITICAL for upwind performance. I think the reason that boards are getting so much attention now is because we have realized that surfboards are not quite right for kiting upwind....so designers have been frantically trying to figure out the right parameters. Fin design on the other hand, is not much different from windsurfing. We sail at similar speeds (similar reynolds #), so the airfoil selection process is pretty much the same. BUT, if you go sail with a bad fin, you are shooting yourself in the foot. A good fin won't mean you will go win races, but a bad fin will ensure that you don't!

ok, lunch break over. i will add a picture of a moth in a second

-patrick
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby patrickrynne » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:18 pm

and here is the moth

mothexample.jpg
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Re: Thruster bad to go upwind?

Postby Yann » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:06 am

Wow, great post! Interesting reading!
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- sorry it's in swedish but pictures are international ;-)
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